Okay - well maybe you could tell us a little about some of the things that you've tried over the years for your addiction but they haven't worked out for you.
I know it took me a long time to get honest - I still struggle with being honest. A lot of it is by being dishonest through omission and not really telling the stuff that I don't really think is necessary - that you really don't need to hear about but I know isn't true.

So - that part - I need to be honest in - my wife says - Thought - Word - and Deed - and I think that's important. I was one way in the meeting and a different way when I left the room - and that didn't work. I had to - live this program in the meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous - or NA - and when I was out. I had to practice these principles in all my affairs and I didn't do that. I have to get right down to being totally honest about where this disease has taken me - what it's done to me - and what I've done to others.

What happens if you're not honest with yourself or with others?
It's a snowball effect. For one thing - people don't know where I'm at in my life - can't really truly know me - they only know bits and pieces of me so they can't really help me. And I'm not willing to let people in - so much. I really want to keep walls up.

So - what I hear you saying - is that if you work half a program it hasn't worked out for you.
No - I haven't gotten terrible results. It isn't like I work half a program and get half results - I fall flat on my face. I get zero results from it. I think I turn into what - how I act is what I become. For instance - I quit drinking but not quit stealing. I'm just a sober thief - you know? I have to live an honest program. I have to - scamming is another thing there - where I wanted to work all these little angles into my life - and that didn't work at all. I had to be- the scamming completely had to go.

I wanted to walk around with a roll of money in my pocket so I could be the big shot - and that had to go. What I had to do was let the money completely go from me. I wanted to keep at least fifty dollars in my pocket. Where that number came from was that with fifty dollars I could get into- I could always buy myself a little package of dope with that fifty dollars. It wasn't for any other reason than that. It was a security blanket - you know? It wasn't about being the big shot - it was about walking around with that backup - just in case I ran into certain people - I always had that fifty dollars where I could get in the game - where I could score - and then worry about it from there on.

And you didn't find that worked out? You had to give that up?
Yeah - totally - you know. I found that some change was enough - and when I'm not using I don't really have a need for money. All my needs are looked after. I certainly have lots of wants. But the things I don't really need to have - you know - they're all looked after. It's surprising how far I can go now with a twenty dollar bill.

What about other things? I mean - did you ever go for psychiatric treatment while you were in your addiction? Did that help you?
Yeah - there again - I seen two or three psychiatrists - psychologists - whatever over the years - plus the psychiatrists and psychologists I seen in treatment. But I could never really get down to being honest - totally honest. I was telling them things I think they wanted to hear. And it wasn't that I did that as much deliberately - I think it was a lot - I was just afraid. It was out of fear. I didn't wanna tell them truly what was wrong. What would they ever think of me if they knew what I was like. But they couldn't help me. I had to be totally honest with the psychiatrists and the doctors so they could help me.

Did they prescribe medications or treatment?
I always wanted to get-- after a while you start to realize what you need to say to get the certain drugs that I wanted to be on. So I would tell them things that would lead them in the direction that I thought needed to be led to get the specific drugs out of them - you know - and drugs that I knew were not good for me.

So it just became another place to act out in your addiction?
Yeah - it sure did. It sure did.

Did you ever find it was very hard to talk circles around these people?
Really - I didn't. I really didn't. I seemed to be able to to keep my own there - hold my own there for sure.

Is it easier to talk around a therapist when it's one on one - or what about a group? Is it easier to talk circles around a group of other addicts?
No - not an experienced - another addict. It's very hard - they catch me every time. I just can't seem to do that. Yeah - I can get the - certainly the person that doesn't know what this disease is about - it's very easy to pull the wool over their eyes. Another addict is a different story. Hard to kid a kidder.

So what else have you tried? Have you ever tried controlled drinking or controlled using?
Yes - uh - I tried every possible way I could think of. I tried to drink just on weekends - just drink beer - don't drink whiskey - don't mix my drinks - just drink wine - only drink certain times of day - never drink before noon hour - only drink when certain people are there. The worst thing I went through was - my wife -  I'd have her give me a beer every hour. That was pure torture. I'd read where the alcohol - the beer will burn off in an hour so - um - suppose you were drinking. So that was true torture - to just have a drink every hour - that was pure torture - the worst thing I've ever done in my life - for sure.

I guess to do all those things - to try all those things - you must have really wanted this problem resolved. Some part of you kept trying all these things.
Yeah - I wanted the hurting to stop. I was so ashamed of myself for hurting the people around me. My family and friends. I was just so ashamed of myself. I didn't wanna hurt anybody. I really did not want to cause them pain. Just to see the look in their eyes - my boy's eyes - and my wife's eyes. It was just devastating to me. My mother - my father - it was just devastating to do those things to them. You know - that was the biggest. My drinking buddies or so called - and friends and that - put up with it. They understood - they shrugged it off. But my family - I just knew it was hurting them. I knew it was a lie and I just knew it couldn't continue - and there was terrible guilt for that.

Did any of your efforts at controlling your use or controlling your drinking work out well?
No - they didn't work at all. I always went from one drug to another too. I seemed to have a drug for every ailment. There was a point where I had a certain drug to get up in the morning - a drug for a hangover - a drug to go to sleep at night. I even had a pattern of how I drank beer. I had a full bottle in my left hand and I drank out of my right hand - and when it got down halfway I was looking for the bartender to order another one. I dreaded last call. That was the words I hated the worst beside the word 'no' - was 'last call'. That was tough.

So - what was it that you were taking before you started on this program?
I was using cocaine - and I was off the booze - I was using percocet and morphine - that was what brought me to my knees as far as the opiates went.

And when was it that you first came here?
I came here - I think it was 2001.

Do you remember how much of those drugs you were using at that time before you came here and how you were using them?
Yeah - I was taking about fifty to one-hundred percocet every day - and about one thousand milligram of morphine and as much cocaine as I could get. How much money I could come up with was how that worked. I needed the opiates to live - to exist. To keep from getting sick. I had to have ten percocets beside my bed at night to eat - I couldn't get out of bed without eating ten percs. And that was just a number that I came up with in my head - you just go from two to four - it was ten that was that magic number - the game that I was playing at the particular point.

And then how long did it take you to get to that point of using opiates?
Probably within four or five years I suppose. Yeah - four or five years.

Does that seem like a lot to you - sitting here today?
Not in comparison with the comparison with the people that I see now at the time. I thought it was crazy. The people around me weren't using like that - but now that I see what's going on - it's just part of - it wasn't special at all.

What do you see that's different today?
Back when I quit the oxycodone was just coming into this area - and I remember getting them and I couldn't give them away. It's something that I didn't start to dabble in because it wasn't a regular thing. But I guess -obviously I always say yet- because if I would have continued I would have been using them because I guess they're a lot stronger. But I had to choose from all the other painkillers - but that was the ones that I preferred was the percs and the morphine.

How was it that you came to start on methadone or this program?
I guess that I'd heard about somebody that was on it it had helped. I'm not even sure who it was - but I was willing to do anything at that point. It was just such an unbelievable life - I just couldn't stay out of jail. I went to see them - I was on the waiting list and they said it would be at least six month. I was devastated when they told me that.

They told me to call them every week or so - which I did. I was begging them to get in - because I was afraid I was going to end up in jail - and sure enough I did end up in jail. And I got out and everything continued along again - right back where I left off - and finally I got the call - and I went on the program in April - I believe it was April - and by the first of May I was completely off them and I've never picked up an opiate again since.

Do you remember what it did for you? How it helped so quickly?
The methadone? Yeah - it just took away any desire to really use any of the opiates. It really worked fairly quick for me. Now I was still in pain in the mornings - I had a lot of pain - back pain and so on until my dose got higher. For me - I realized quite soon that I was just wasting my money because I was getting no effect from the percocets when I would take them along with the methadone. I think I was at forty mg when I really realized it was working for me - and I was just wasting my money. It took a while to get stabilized so I didn't have any pain in the mornings - but it really did work fast though with me. I've heard different people but that's my story.

And then what happened for you then?
Well then - there was nothing of course for the cocaine addiction - that was - I continued to use the cocaine. I certainly knew when I came here that that wasn't going to help it - it just left me more money to use on the cocaine - so I continued along with my cocaine addiction. But - there was more money left for the cocaine addiction so that's what happened with me.

So you didn't at first use the program here as an opportunity to deal with your addiction overall?
No - I didn't. I just wanted - I only came here for the opiate addiction - 'cause it was just so horrendous to me - and I had actually believed that there was no way of me getting off the cocaine. I'd come to that conclusion after twenty years of trying to beat it. That I just couldn't. There was no way around it. There was no pill I could take. There was nothing I could take - nothing was working for me - so I had just come to the conclusion that I had to deal with it. I was going to die of an active addiction - that's what I believed.

And what came about?
Well - actually - that isn't what happened. For some reason after a few years of continuing using I had a few days here and there that I wasn't using and then all of a sudden I had a couple of weeks where I was clean - and I had clean urine all of a sudden - and I just continued to attend group here - and after a couple of years of group. I think things - all the knowledge from the years of going to AA and NA.

I had twenty years of knowledge and I didn't have twenty years of recovery 'cause I didn't use the knowledge - I didn't use any of the information - the tools that I was given - I just wasn't using them. I had them but they were of no use - they weren't helping because I wasn't using them. I like to say I had them in the pawn shop - and when I got them out of the pawn shop and started putting them to practice things changed rapidly. And once I realized - it clicked - Hey - I'm clean - and - I maybe have a chance of staying clean here if I just keep doing what I did yesterday. Thinking something might happen - and that's where things changed for me.

And you were on the methadone program for how long before you stopped using cocaine or it started to peter out?
Five years.

Five years?
Yes.

And during that whole five years you never used opiates?
Nope. Never used opiates whatsoever but I never stopped using cocaine.

And do you have any idea what was that started to sink in or change - or what?
I - ah - I was just so full of guilt and shame - remorse. My wife was very sick. -I didn't have the money. I didn't want to continue stealing - continual lies and scamming. I had gotten to where I was continually using but it was - chance user. It was not use in great quantities. Basically - you know -  forty dollars every other day type of thing.

It wasn't where I was using before at great amounts of money. You know I just didn't have the ability to do that. I had to stay home and look after my wife - so the opportunities weren't there for me to use. They just weren't there - and the money wasn't there. I wasn't prepared to lie to my family about it. It was just overwhelming. Finally it just became easier not to use than use. And finally it became greater that - I wanted to stay clean more than I wanted to use.

But I - belief came over me - I constantly prayed about this now. For years I never stopped praying every morning that some day that this obsession would be removed from me. And I believe - I believe that the obsession that I knew was taken from me. That's what happened with me. There was no burning bush - there was none - happened to me - but the obsession to use cocaine was lifted from me.

The desire to use alcohol had been taken away many years before. I had a terrible alcohol addiction and for whatever reason - it was the same - I had a marijuana addiction that was grandiose - I was used to smoking a half an ounce a day - just like cigarettes. And I just threw them away one day. It wasn't just that simple. It was too hard for me to get around the drug tests because the marijuana stayed in your system forever and I was being closely monitored as far as my urine went - and I just threw that away at one point. The cocaine addiction was just the last addiction I was left with.

Where did you get the idea to pray for relief from your compulsion to use?
From Alcoholics Anonymous - from treatment centers - and from my wife who is a very spiritually religious lady - who - through the whole process - continued to go to Al-Anon and her program sort of rubbed off on me - the way that she lived rubbed off on me. You gotta remember - that I'm an addict but I'm not a dumb person - I know how to pick a good lady and I had the best woman on the planet for a wife. And she had a very good program that was working for her - and she was able to have serenity through all this nonsense that I was going through. She has some sort of serenity in her life - and it rubbed off on me. That's what I believe.

So did you have to do anything differently to achieve this goal of not using cocaine?
Yeah - well - sure did - once I realized I had a shot at staying clean - I realized - I can be able to do this - I better take this real serious. I immediately jumped on the bandwagon - and I - the "do" things - I made sure that I continued to absolutely never - I started meditating in the morning - I started journaling - eventually I started going to the gym. I hooked up with another fella in the program that was clean and sober - and had some clean time. And I took advantage of some old phone numbers that I had with guys that were in NA and AA.

I really didn't get out to many meetings. I went to a meeting Sunday mornings - AA meeting - being my wife was sick and that I didn't get out to a lot of meetings. But I made a commitment to go to certain meetings and I followed through with that. I absolutely never missed the meetings that I was supposed to go to. I started being very responsible for what - when I said I was going to be home - I was home at that particular time. I made sure I called if I was going to be late.

I started to live totally honest - when it clicked in that I had a shot at staying clean I started - I went out and started grabbing these tools up that I had learned over the years and went into action. I did that - as soon as I realized I had a shot at staying clean one day at a time - I grabbed ahold of them tools and I'm not letting them go for nothing now. I know it doesn't happen to a lot of people that way. It's only my story I can tell ya - you know? It'd be nice if I could tell you a little burning bush  story - but I'd just be making it up and that's not what happened.

You mentioned group somewhere in there. How has the group fit in to these changes?
The group was actually huge - huge to me. It became many things to me. It became a place - a commitment that I went to Mondays and Thursdays. It was a commitment that I went through it - that I absolutely made a decision that I was going to do it - come hell or high water - I was going to show up at that meeting - I decided I was going to contribute to that meeting and I was going to be honest - and I was going to tell them the truth no matter what was going on in my life - I was going to tell them the truth - I wasn't going to lie about it and sugar coat it. I was just going to be honest with it.

There was a couple of people there that I - wanted what they had and there was a bunch of people there I didn't want anything to do with what they had - so I took from who I needed to and I left the rest there. But I made this also a part of my social life. It was my outing - 'cause I wasn't getting out of the house very often at all with my wife being ill. I wanted to be with my wife. I absolutely wanted to be there for her. I wanted to make her life as easy as it could be. I wanted to be her friend and her companion and to be a good husband and I wanted to be there for her. That became a big part of my life. That it was this commitment that I wanted to follow through on - I wanted to be here for her finally - rather than her having to clean up my messes for twenty years or thirty years. I wanted to be a part of her life and I wanted to be a good husband. And I wanted to be a good dad. And it was my opportunity to do all that.

There was only one or two times I missed in the three year time frame - the rest of the time I was there. And it was the same thing - I just lived my life according to them rules - that I was going to be honest - that I was going to start to be responsible - that I was going to live responsible from then on. Talk about extremes.

And that's what you attribute to how your doing now?
Yep.

How are you doing now?
I think - I know - I don't think - I know that I'm a different person. I know that I live differently. I know that I can be trusted. I know that I'm going to show up and be where I'm supposed to be. I'm gonna be honest today. I'm going to be a good friend today. I'm gonna - I'm not so self absorbed at all. I think of other people.

I think of my wife a lot with her disease - her sickness. I think about how strong a person she is - she deals with her problems and never complains. I see that - I don't think - I don't feel I have a right to whine about my little problems. Here's a woman that's got a disease - there's nothing she can do - and here me -  I gotta disease that all I have to do is not pick up a drink and do a few little things - change my life and live right and I can cure it - where I can put it in remission. If she could only do that - you know. I like to live my life where the glass is half full rather than half empty.

I listened to a tape - Father Joe Martin - I'm a big tape listener so I listen to a lot of tapes - all that information there - and he says You know when they say count your blessings? - Do That! - and that's what I try to do. I know that from reading and the internet isn't probably any substitute for actual human beings and meetings but in my situation I grab ahold of them and I use them tools. I use them in my recovery.

I'm sorry - what are you referring to?
As far as the Internet - the Support Net website - I use that in my life. I use the AA tapes - I use the AA book - the NA also - I use the NA material - I use anything -  I watch Dr. Phil. I use anything that's a positive influence in my recovery. I find a lot of positive things that I can use in my life on the television - you know? On some of these talk shows - anything that is a positive in my life I put it into play - I use it. I grab ahold of it.

And you know another thing I've learned? I never know where the message is going to come from. I used to shut people out 'cause I didn't think people had anything to offer me - in a meeting or a group - whatever. And that's - I found that not true. I never know where the message is going to come from that I need to hear. And I take everybody at - that I may hear that thing I need to hear that day to keep me clean - I keep an open mind. I was very close minded for a long - long time. And I can't afford to do that. I need to listen to everybody - you know? I

'm a yapper. I like to say lots - but I like - I really do have an interest in what others have to say - because where I've gotten any of this knowledge from is right from listening in meetings. I must have been listening over the years 'cause I've heard some things that were very beneficial. I try to put that into practice.

Some of this stuff sounds spiritual.
I'd wanna think that. I'm really not a religious person. I've come to realize that - I used to be against religion but it was only because I was ignorant. I didn't know anything about it. But my wife - being a hard core catholic - I don't have anything against religion. I like the spiritual life - I don't get them confused. I think that religion is man made and spirituality is god made. Anything that is a positive love - is based around positive love and positive messages is a good thing.

Something you've mentioned a couple of times that I'm more just curious about - if you feel like you could comment on. You have a lot of acquaintances in 12 Step programs - and you've mention at some point you've renewed some of your connections. What do they about your involvement with the methadone program. What's their take on that?
You know - I think the people that I hang around with or associate with are open-minded and have enough sobriety under their belt that they don't have any comment on it. And there's something in the traditions that says something along the lines that - We have no opinion on outside issues. And the people that I hang with have good programs - and they've got something I wanted - and I knew they have good programs and they're smart enough to know not to comment on stuff like that. That it's an outside issue - and they under the belief that whatever works is a good thing - and they don't really have much comment on it. And that's what - I just think they're good people and they only want the best for me - and if it isn't hurting me and if it's a good thing - I think they're for it.

I'm going to ask you two more questions. The first is if there's anything that we haven't touched on that you feel it would be important to talk about.
Yeah - I think that over the years - just because I didn't stay clean that doesn't mean that it wasn't times - I didn't have some clean time - or I didn't have some moments of clarity that I didn't try to get things back. One thing I did - was I lived my life - I did not live a good life. Before I was married - I met a girl in a bar. We had a child. And while I was married I had two other children outside of my marriage.

And through the program - and through working the steps over the years - it was something that I had to deal with and I just had to come up - be open and honest with - and I got these children back in my life at one point. And this is one of the best things that ever happened. They're wonderful children. With my son Jason and the other three children - there's four of them. They're all good kids - and they all have their qualities. My wife - we've worked through this together though the program. We didn't try to sweep under the carpet.

I just couldn't imagine not having my children and the grandchildren in our lives. It's the most wonderful thing that's happened in my sobriety - that I could never plan this out myself. Just by being honest - and being open - be willing to take chances and be willing to - regardless of what happened I had to bring this - put this on the table and deal with this - that it's just a wonder thing. And I love them dearly and my wife does too. If anybody has any children out there - they really need to deal with that. You just can't pretend that they don't exist. It's not fair to them and it's not fair to yourself.

The last question that I'm going to ask is if there's anything at all you'd like to say to the people that are still out there suffering with these kinds of addictions?
Yeah - well - I didn't live my life very good - and I was a terrible example as a husband - as a father - as a friend - as an owner - as a trainer of my horses - and driver - and I did a lot of people harm. And I did a lot of thing bad - and a lot of things I was ashamed of. And I didn't think like was even worth living at one point. And I just - you know - in and out of the program for twenty years and - all that shame I brought to my family name.

And all that stuff now is a little - it's starting to - I'm dealing with things and I'm dealing with it. And I'm just so grateful for the opportunity to live one day at a time with a little bit of contentment - and so grateful to have my wife in my life and having a relationship with the children. It's just such a good life. I have the opportunity now to turn things around - and I dunno what the futures going to bring. I'm sure that nobody gave me much of a chance of ever being clean and sober from what they've seen. I'm sure I was written off - and it just goes to show you that anything's possible.

Things don't happen on my time and your time - it's in God's hands - and if they let it turn things over and willing to do some work - if you have your opportunity to maybe - there's a little bit of a gap in your life where you have sort of a spiritual awakening - you gotta just pay attention to that - it's never ever too late. You can always put your life back together. For me - I'm just so grateful that I've had the opportunity to change my life. It's much more than I ever could have imagined. I may even get a chance to get a driver's license for a car back. I've lost my license - been working on paying my tickets off - and maybe getting my license back.

There are things that I thought my life was totally over with - but who knows what the future has to hold for me. I just know that you can get clean and sober under any circumstances. I think that you can make it a lot easier on yourself. I know that I made it so difficult for - to stay clean. There's an atmosphere you have to put yourself in to stay clean and sober - and an environment - the change is very hard but you can make the changes necessary if you can trust in some people. Trust in somebody.

Alright - thank you very much for all that you've had to say.
Alright - thank you. I hope it helps somebody.

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