You were starting to tell us about your first time at a treatment center when you were in your early thirties. Maybe we could pick things up there.
I had a lot of problems in my life. I had people on my back. I was short of money. Money was being a problem where it shouldn't have been. I was having too many arguments with my wife. My parents were always on my back. I was getting in trouble with my owners of my horses that I had trained. People - my friends - had started to back out of my life. I was doing things to them -  that were - friends just don't do to other friends. I was starting to become very irresponsible.

I wasn't making my commitments when I should. I started to miss days of work that I never ever missed. And to me - my dad used to say - you wanna be a bull at night - you better be a damn good steer in the morning. And that's how I lived my life. I played hard and worked hard - and I sort of - my self esteem - a lot of that was based on how hard I worked - and how hard my reputation for being a hard partier. Not an alcoholic or drug addict of course - but being a hard partier. And being able to do that. Being able to hold everything together - and things were falling apart. I needed some time. I needed a vacation. Basically - I needed some time away - to just get my thought back - regroup - and that's the part  that sort of looked okay with me. That I was just going to be able to get away from this nonsense for a while. Any monies that I owed - it'd give me a break away from the drug dealers  and so on - and so forth. And I just needed a vacation.

So it was your idea?
Well - it was certainly everybody around me - it wasn't my idea - of course not. But it was suggested to me - and the pressure that I was getting from everybody around me just seemed like that sounded like a good thing to do right now in my life. It was okay - I could do that. I just packed a bag and - I wasn't given a lot of time to thing about it. I was only - it was put on me on a Saturday to be ready to go on Monday morning - and I felt I could do that.

So it sort of sounds like going to your first treatment program was a bit of a solution - a way out of the problems that were building up around you . . .
Yeah - it seemed like it - certainly a temporary solution.

So tell us what happened . . .
Well - they dropped me off and said here ya go - I'll see ya in 28 days. And they showed me around the place - and I met a few people and I was sort of amazed that - you know - there was some people there my age. I think I was around 30 years old at the time. Maybe a little younger - maybe a little older - but around that neighborhood. Yeah - there was a couple of people there younger than me - there was a couple of people exactly my age - and there was a couple older than me. But they were basically around my age - and I could identify with them - and that's what I - right away I noticed that most of these people were normal joes just like me. They all looked healthy. Nobody looked any differently.

That's the thing - I bounced right back. A day or two after a binge and I looked like a normal joe. I physically bounced right back. I never had severe hangovers - and as far as the people looking at me - I suppose everything looked perfect in my world but they certainly weren't. Everybody else at the recover home looked that way. There was people there for two weeks. It was one of them deals where ten people or so would go - and then two weeks later another group of ten would come in. And by that time there would be people going in and out every two weeks. That's sort of how the program worked.

So you could watch the progression of people - and the people that were leaving looked very - very healthy and happy. It just really caught my attention right away that geez - these people looked like they got their stuff together. The people that were leaving the day that I came in. Right off the bat - I sort of found that once I settled down to the fact that I was gonna be there. The rooms were nice. It was a very nice house. And I thought - yeah - this was an okay place to have a little vacation. It was very busy. I was busy from the time I got up.

The routine - I was used to getting up and working hard - so it wasn't a big deal at that point. I think we were up at six-thirty in the morning and did our routine. I had a bit of a routine - as far as getting up to go to work ever morning and that. So - you know - that wasn't a hard adjustment for me. I remember the thing that I hated the most - i dreaded - was that I believe from eight-thirty to nine o’clock ever morning we had to do meditation. That consumed of a sort of laying still and trying to teach us proper meditation - which I had never - I never knew anything about meditation. I just knew what I'd seen on TV and this wasn't quite like that. But I just dreaded that half hour. That was a half hour that I had to sit still and I could not sit still at that point in my life at all.

I'm still not very good at it - but I'm a hundred times better than I used to be. I just could not sit still - and they wanted me to sit still for - meditate for a half an hour - and I absolutely dreaded that half hour. That's what I remember the most. At that treatment center they took you through the steps - just sort of an introduction to the steps. I think the second weekend there - they had you grab a pen and paper and do a fourth step. It was basically just a quick look into your life - and how drugs and alcohol and that had affected your life. That was really beneficial to me. It really gave me a look at how things had affected - it gave me a start anyway - into how the drugs and alcohol had affected my life - and really how I sorta chased that first time that I got high.

And that's how I went through my life - really chasing that first experience with the drugs and alcohol. Alcohol for me - was the first thing I used. Then marijuana - and then you know - your LSD - stuff like that. It was a progression - and I think that a lot of people back then went through. And I was fairly typical that way. But it was very beneficial. And then on the Monday - we wrote the fourth out on the weekend - and I believe on the Monday we had a choice of four or five people that listened to fourth steps and did fifth steps with us. I chose a man of the cloth to do that with. I felt quite serene after doing the fifth step. I definitely put a lot into that weekend - and - as much as I could at that time - anyway. It really jumpstarted - made me have a look at - yes - that geez - maybe I - there is a problem here - and alcohol and drug addiction is the problem. If I - you know - I needed to stay away from drugs and alcohol to have what I wanted in my life.

So by two weeks into treatment you were already starting to realize that?
Yeah - I went from total denial - hundred percent denial to two weeks into treatment - that - yes - doing this fourth - that yes - I definitely have a problem here. And I needed to stay clean and sober to have a happy life.

And - I'm sorry - you're saying what they were having you doing was write down some of the problems that had come into your life from drugs and alcohol. They were sort of making you write things down and look at stuff?
Yeah - it was an actual biography of my life. Where I started - where I grew up. A progression - my life story actually - is what it was. It was wasn't so much the seven deadly sins or anything. But it was just - more of a just have a  look at my whole life and write it out.

What part of it made you click? Because it's dramatic: For ten years you hadn't really realized the nature of the problem you were in. But after two weeks of treatment you started to get some glimpse of it.
First of all I noticed that I wasn't alone. I noticed that there was - this wasn't a unique thing. I thought I was always a little different than anyone else. I come quickly - I realized that - I identified totally with a lot of these people I was in treatment with - that I was not different. I was just like them. And I thought the way they did.

And the biggest thing for me was that the feeling that I got the very first time that I used drugs or alcohol - I'd had this total belief that everything was all right. That everything was calm among this huge storm. There was this big turmoil going on in my life - but as soon as I used drugs or alcohol - everything appeared to be A-OK. And I chased that. And that was what I was doing. And it just - by doing this life story - there was - it showed a progression of how the alcohol was taking over my life. And how I got to a point where it was twenty-four-seven  I thought about getting drugs or using drugs - or when I could use them. I wouldn't go anywhere without it. My whole life was spent around it - around my friends - my relationships that I had formed were all based on drugs and alcohol.

You had talked about that earlier - how drugs seemed to - started out to be a solution for you. And then over time they became a problem for you.
Yeah - they had become my enemy. I couldn't plan anything. I couldn't go out with anybody that didn't use. I wouldn't associate with people that didn't use. I couldn't make any plans. I couldn't go on a - I couldn't go out for dinner unless there was alcohol around. I couldn't go to - relations houses that didn't drink and use. It was really a problem. I just couldn't do the things that normal people did. I couldn't go to take my son to kids parties as they grew up and stuff like that - I noticed that because there was no alcohol there. If there wasn't booze at a place I couldn't go.

And it really - the addiction had put a - caused a problem in my life - and it was just so apparent by doing that little life story - that things just become obvious to me - that there was more to it than that. All the impaired drivings - all that - and not every time I was drunk I got in trouble - but every time I got in trouble there was booze or drugs associated with it. It just become very obvious to me that that was the way it was.

So what else happened while you were in treatment that first time?
I made some really good friends. When I got out they told me what to do. The biggest thing they said was - when I left - that's when recovery started. And I needed to do some things when I left or I wasn't going to be able to continue on staying clean and sober. They told me I had to join AA - I had to get a home group. I had to get a sponsor. I had to get active in the program. I had to keep away from one drink and one drug for one day. Ask for help in the morning - and give thanks at night. And if I did these certain things then I would be able to stay away from drugs and alcohol twenty-four hours at a time - for the rest of my life. But what I - I wasn't ready to do. I hadn't totally had my house cleaned out. I wasn't totally ready to get of all my friends and associates I'd picked up over the years. I wasn't prepared to take it easy when it was time to get back to work. I had to make up for lost time and lost money. I wasn't prepared to go to ninety in ninety days - ninety meetings in ninety days - that was suggested to me.

And what I did was - how my recovery came to an end at that point was a fellow associate that I worked with - he was still in the drug scene - and he had to weigh some drugs up and I had not gotten rid of my scale so I thought it would be fine if I took 'em to my house and here we could weigh up some drugs 'cause I wasn't about to use them. Well - he weighed them up - and no of course - I still didn't wanna use any. After he was done weighing up there was a film of cocaine left on the scales - and I thought it would be alright if I just scraped them crumbs up and did them - and that was the end of it right there. And that's what I did - and I used them. And then I immediately ran back to him - and bought some off of him and that was just the whole thing that crashed down on top of me that quickly. So my short sixty day sobriety was out the window.

So I presume the treatment program didn't recommend you scrape that cocaine off the scales?
They recommended that I get rid of all the paraphernalia that I had in my house. They strongly recommended that I get all them type of friends out of my life. No - they certainly - that was one hundred percent against what I was taught in treatment.

Let's talk a little bit about what happened there. This is something a lot of people are curious about: Why doesn't rehab fix people? What I hear you saying is you were better by the time you'd spent your thirty days in rehab - and you had a clear picture of what was going on in your life and what had gone wrong. Do you think on your last day there that you believed you were an alcoholic or a drug addict?
Yeah - it took me a little while for me to go with the idea that it was a disease. I thought that it was just an easy way out. But I don't know when that changed - or even if I'd totally accepted that part. I think it took me a lot longer. I don't think I accepted that one hundred percent. I might not have accepted that for years.

That's what they tried to explain to you?
Yeah - that it was a disease. It wasn't my fault. It was something that I had. But it was totally my responsibility to look after my recovery. That's what I was taught. Was one hundred percent my responsibility to look after my recovery. It wasn't my - fault that I was an addict. It really didn't matter how I became an addict. It didn't matter whether it was my genes - or if I was left on the toilet backwards when I was a kid. None of that mattered. The whole thing mattered that I was one - and it was my responsibility to do what I needed to do to stay away from them. And the only way that I could have a life of being happy - joyous - and free - was to stay away from that first drink and that first drug one day at a time for the rest of my life. That was what was put on my plate for me to handle.

From the day that you left treatment that first time - how long would you say you followed their recommendations?
I went to a meeting - I believe that night. So I was right on base - first night. But I immediately started figuring things out that I really didn't need to do. You know? Immediately. I didn't do things a hundred percent. I started to do them ninety percent. It didn't take long at all before I was doing things my way. There were just things I didn't buy. The whole program. I bought most of it - or some of it - and there was things that I needed to do - and there was things that I didn't need to do. I felt that I knew myself better than anybody and that I could run the show. And that was totally against the program's belief.

When it come to my addiction I didn't know what was best for me - and I wanted to believe that I did. And I didn't wanna accept the fact that I was totally powerless. And that's the first step stuff that I really never got. It took me twenty years to get a hundred percent. And that's the part that I believe has to be gotten one hundred percent is the very first step. The rest of it I can make mistakes on - but I cannot make mistakes on the very first step.

And what does that mean to you?
It means that I am powerless over alcohol. That my life is unmanageable. It means that I cannot drink. That I can't guarantee my actions when I pick up that first drink. The problem is that I can't drink. If I drink problems happen. I can't guarantee my actions when I drink. And I can't not drink. Against all the knowledge that I have about that - with my own defenses - I don't have any against that first drink. Even knowing everything about what's going to happen - I will still drink at some point in my life - on my own.

Without help - I will drink. And that's the insanity of the first step. The total insanity of the disease. Knowing that it's going to kill me and still pick it up. Is it. I knew that I was slowly committing suicide. I really did know that. Knowing that - I still wasn't willign to do what it took to not pick up.

Do you think you just didn't believe them? Or didn't think it applied to you?
I didn't think it totally applied to me - you know. There were things that applied to me. But I just didn't buy it all a hundred percent.

'Cause it doesn't sound like you disliked going to meetings . . .  
No - I actually loved it. I actually really enjoyed it. I liked the people. Like I said - I bought into a lot of it. A lot of it - I'd bought in to. I went through different stages as it went on - I'll talk about later - but I picked up things along the way like - Yeah - I don't have to drink or use hard drugs but it'd be okay to smoke pot. - stuff like that - as I went along. All them things had to be - them thoughts had to be smashed totally.

And how did that happen?
I believe that I kept relapsing and hurting myself. I kept hitting new bottoms that I never thought were imaginable. That were just so terrible in my mind. That it just - somehow - I'd like to tell you that something happened in my life that was miraculous - that I'd seen a  burning bush - but the fact is - I just kept coming to your group - and the group at the clinic. And somewhere along the line I started having clean pee tests - and at one point I said Holy mackeral - I think I can do this. and then it got to be - I'm going to do this! - and it just got to be really important to me that I didn't relapse. And I don't know what happened but I stopped relapsing. I wish I could tell you that I hit a bottom that was just terrible - and I smashed three cars up - and broke my arms - and all that. But I've gone through all those terrible things before and I still picked up. This time for whatever reason I just stopped relapsing.

Lots of people would think that when something terrible like that happens that - you know - "Oh - I'll never drink again. I'll never use again." Doesn't that fear of that thing keep people sober?
Yeah - they do. The absolutely do - for a short period of time. But fear alone will not keep me clean when I'm all alone and the wolves are biting at my heels. You know - them nights when everything is falling down on top of you. The fear won't keep me clean. It just comes a point where I don't have a defense or anything against that first drink. Beyond all of that I will pick up if I don't have the tools in my life and I don't pick up the phone and talk to somebody - or deal with my problems on a daily basis.

There'll be a point that the fear will just - willpower comes and goes - it does. It just comes and goes. There has to be a point where I need a power greater than myself to relieve that from me. And I believe that I found a power greater than myself . It's been coming through the doors of AA and NA - and the groups - and it was important that I get on the proper medication that I needed to get on to. But through all doing all that - and getting sort of a clear mind - that I come up with a power greater than myself. At first it was several powers greater than me. But now I do have an ultimate higher power that keeps me clean one day at a time.

So by that first time you went to treatment - it sounds like you had quite a bit of responsibility in your life. You were working - you had a family by then.
Yes - I did.

Could you tell us a little about them and your responsibilities?
Well when I was in treatment I had a boy probably between eight and ten. I had a wife. We got married when we were eighteen. I was training and driving racehorses. I had a business to run and I had employees - a couple of employees. It was very important that I stay - It was very important that my image wasn't out there either that I was a fall-down. And everybody knew that I was - but I didn't think that everybody knew.

But I was the last to know that I was an alcoholic - actually. Everyone knew before me. I suppose my son knew when he was three or four knew that I was an alcoholic just by the way I was acting. But to me - it took whatever - it took years of banging my head against the wall. I had a lot of responsibilities - and I didn't want any responsibilities. They were just sort of put on me. It was like I had a broken coper. I just couldn't cope with all this pressure.

So you had a wife and one son?
Yes - I also had three other childrens from - one was before I was married - and two were while I was married. And that sort of went with the drugs and alcohol. That lifestyle of carousing and not being a good husband was - I didn't have any contact with them other children at this point in my life. They were - it was hush-hush - and I didn't let anybody know about it. It was a double life I was leading. That was the hardest part was trying to live a double or triple life - whatever it was I was leading. Not to be found out. To try and keep all the lies straight.

It doesn't sound like an easy lifestyle.
It was very much harder. It took a lot more willpower to live that life than it ever did to stay clean and sober.

But it didn't seem like that at the time.
It sure didn't. The only option - it was the only relief I was getting - was when I used. It was the only relief I got from all this pressure. I got a mini vacation by using drugs and alcohol. It's the only way I can describe it to you - it was these little mini vacations I was taking.

So drugs and alcohol were still a solution for you even though they were the thing causing a lot of these problems.
That's right - that's right. And regardless of the problems. It was just so overwhelming - it just gave such a euphoria to me - the price certainly wasn't high enough to pay for the problems. The good thing just outweighed the problems at that point. It just didn't seem that - it seemed like the only way to get any type of release from this pressure that I was putting on myself.

So where was the first treatment center you were at?
Westover Treatment Center in Thamesville.

And then you've been in treatment since then?
I have. It seemed like every two years after that I was in treatment. I went to Bellwood in Toronto. I was covered by OHIP. But they did a lot of extras that would cost ninety-six hundred on top of OHIP to go there. They had a lot of extra things - as far as acupuncture and massage - and diet - special foods - and medicines - and pill and stuff that - it was quite - as far as what they taught us - was pretty much the same. But these extra things that they did - it was a fancier treatment center - but the message was the same.

I also went to Homewood twice. I went back to Westover's day program. I went through that. I also did two stints at Turning Point live-in recovery home. I stayed there twice - once for seven months. And I also - I added them up - I didn't add them up - I actually went to - they have it all in computer - about how many times I was in detox - about a week at a time. It was forty-five stints in detox - but then I remembered the other day that I also spent two weeks in Simcoe detox - so I guess that's forty-six times I was in. That was the number I was given. And they also have how you got there.

And I remember the first time I went into detox - I was certainly much too special - celebrity - to go to detox - but I'd been on a two day run and I'd run out of money and while I was standing at the corner of Highbury and Hamilton Road - and I had a quarter left or bummed a quarter and phoned the police and told them that there was some lunatic running around there - acting crazy and they should come to investigate. So the police showed up and I had them give me a taxi ride to the detox. That was how I had my first ride to detox. Thank you very much for them - I'll never see so indebted. That was - alcoholics and addicts think the same way - get a free ride to detox by the police.

So for someone that didn't have any coping tools you seemed to have your wits about you in some ways.
Yeah - after a two day run to come up with silly things like that. Yeah - I've never met too many stupid alcoholics and addicts for some reason. For some reason - they just - I'm the exception to the rule - that's not too sharp. There's a lot of sharp people that I've met in treatment centers and detox. You get a couple of days clean and some of the stories and smarts of some of these guys and the abilities - even to draw - and poetry that I've seen from these people is just amazing. Just amazing! It certainly has nothing to do with whether your smart or not - because some of the smartest people I've ever met - and the smartest person I've ever met was in treatment. Yup - it's amazing to me. So it's got nothing to do with intelligence. It gets everybody this disease. Or sex. It doesn't seem to matter if you're a woman or a man.

So presumably each time you went to treatment - it was because things weren't going very well.
No - that's right. I was at my bottom each time I went and I just didn't see any way out.

And while you were in each of these treatment programs did you use drugs or alcohol?
No - no. I stayed clean. I was good then. I did well in recovery homes. I did very well actually.

So by the time you came out of the treatment programs each time you had some plans or some recommendations - you were better - you were healthier?
Yeah - but I was always told - I believe as I look back - that they always told me that I needed to change my occupation - 'cause they'd always come up with this thing from getting to know me and the psychiatry and that - that the stress that I was under from my job - from the horses - the pressure I put on myself was just - the atmosphere just wasn't conducive for me for my recovery.

But I just could not and would not accept that because it was something I just loved - it was my life. It was everything to me. It was - my whole self-esteem was based on how well I did. I just could not ever foresee myself - not doing that for - I just couldn't - I just wouldn't accept that - it was something I continued to go back on. And it was also not following the advice - and trying to do it my way - as I look back on it. Not doing it a hundred percent. And that was part of the addiction. Until I stopped doing that - I continued to relapse and that is totally a part of self-will run riot. And that is my problem.

These don't sound like easy things to just decide one day to let go of.
No. They weren't for me anyway. I just couldn't foresee myself not doing that. Another thing was when I was in school I just - I can remember not wanting to do too good or too bad. I just wanted to get down the middle of the road. Just get sixty percent type of thing. But then I always have this thing - I couldn't go to college or anything 'cause I wasn't smart enough - I just didn't have the ability to do that. I went back to get my GED (General Education Degree). And I whizzed right through that. I was getting nineties. And I just whizzed right through that. Did great at it.

And I had some things put towards me for a career change and that - but the timing was just as I was going to do that - I was under suspension at one point for driving - and the dropped the suspension - I could go back to work - of course I jumped at that - and there goes my education out the window. And I put that first again. What I learned from that was - that no - I wasn't dumb. I was able to do it. And yes - the only difference for me was that I didn't have the opportunity - and that I didn't go through with my goals. And I didn't have the stick-to-it it took to do it. And given the opportunity I could do it as good as the next person. That was an excuse. That wasn't a reason for not getting an education. I just used that as an excuse that I wasn't smart enough. I certainly proved to myself that I was.

Sounds like there was always something more important to do than get better from this problem . . .
I certainly had every excuse that you could think of for reasons that I couldn't get better. I just couldn't seem to put it first in my life. It'd probably have to be the first thing - and still - to this day - and I guess that's the reason why I'm staying clean now - is because it is the most important thing in my life. More important than my wife and my kids. And the fact that if I don't have recovery - my wife is going to leave and my kids aren't going to speak to me. And they're not going to be in my life - and I'm not going to have them in any way. I have to look after that first. You know - I don't have anything to help me in my recovery. 'Cause nobody wants me around. Nobody wants me in their life. You know - I hate my guts so I don't know how anybody else could like me if  I was using. 'Cause I can't stand me. So I have to stay clean and sober.

This is a confusing thing for people. It's going to strike some people as pretty dramatic that someone would sit here and say that my recovery is more important than my wife and kids . . .
I know - that just sounds awful when I saw it. When I hear you say it. But my wife is the first one to tell you - she's found recovery though Al-Anon - and she would be the first to tell you that that is the way it has to be. And for her - her recovery has to come before me. And she has to put her recovery in Al-Anon before anything - and I have to put my recovery first. I guess you have to be there - you have to walk a mile in our shoes before you realize what we're saying - because without recovery life isn't worth living.

Have you had experiences where you've made other things more important than your recovery today.
Well - every time I did that I fell flat on my face - and drinking and drugging was the first thing that came to mind. And life gets so active - upside down. I'll tell you one thing. There's nothing worse than not drinking and wanting to drink - and not using and wanting to use. That's an awful feeling. You know - when you get finally - and you get clean - and you get contentment - and you're happy - and you can go through life not wanting to use. No thought of using. It's an absolute wonderful thing. You know - you just want to pass it to anyone that's got a problem - because it's such a good feeling.

But I went - I've gone so many times where I've prayed in the morning and used my lunchtime or sat in a meeting and left there and went and used because that's all that - just overwhelmed with the desire to use. You know - it's just a wonderful thing when that leaves you. And through the grace of God - and the twelve steps - in AA and Narcotics Anonymous - that's - left it. And I just pray that it doesn't come back.

So if I hear you right: A person's clean during recovery - and something else rears up that just seems a little bit more important at the moment.
Yup - that's right. That's fair. SLIP - to me means Sobriety Loses Its Priority. You know? It just had to be number one. And when it loses it's priority - that's what happen. That's when slips start.

And once things start to sorta get difficult again - how long has it taken you before you get back into recovery? You're saying you might be up there for two years using before?
Yeah - you know - I know that if pick up I may never get back. I may never - ever get back because I came so close since the last time. It could take - from the time I started slipping - they say that you're never sitting still in recovery: you're either going forward or backward. One or the other. And so if I'm not practicing this program every day - in a positive way - then I'm not going ahead I'm going backward.

So I can't afford to go backwards. It could take me a day - it could take me a week - but the end result's gonna be the same. Sobriety's gonna lose it's priority - and the end result is I'm going to pick up. But before I pick up there's a lot of signs showing that things are not good in my life. They won't just be - I always thought - Oh I dunno why - I just picked up -  I had no reason - and no answers. But if I'm doing my inventory today - and I'm looking my life and I'm working a good program I'm gonna see changes in my life - and I'm gonna see things that I'm doing - and I'm gonna be reacting to people and things that aren't conducive to sobriety.

And that's the importance of me doing little mini inventories every day - that I can see this stuff building up and I don't let it build up. And I just can't afford to hold resentments. And I can't afford to fight with anybody or anything. As it says in the big book - I have to stop fighting. I was just talking to you about - earlier - about having these - goofy thoughts of watching people on TV and getting resentful at them - and wanting to get revenge for what they've done - and stuff like that. Well - you know -  it's not a big deal if you just think things out but when it starts to be a big part of my life. It's showing me that I can't accept things for exactly as they are as they are - and as they should be.

And if I don't accept things as the way they're supposed to be - and I start playing god - I'm in big trouble. There's only one god and it ain't me. When I start putting my wants and desires on other people - that's what I think I'm doing is playing god. If I don't know what's right for myself how can I possibly know what's right for anybody else - you know?

You think that looking over others people's shoulders is a way to keep yourself from looking too deeply inside?
Oh sure - I love to look at other people. It just keeps my focus off myself - and I know that I can't do that though. It's so much fun sometimes - to take other people's inventory. I don't have to look at myself. It gives me a relief. It's not healthy. And I need to not do that stuff. But in other senses how do I know who I'm gonna hang around with - who I'm gonna want for friends if I don't take a little bit of their inventory. But - I really have to do it a little bit - but I can't be doing it in a judgemental way - you know? I have do do it in an open way - and a thoughtful caring way. No - I gotta stay on the same level as everybody else. I'm not below anybody or above anybody. I have to be on that same plane to be healthy.

You sound like someone who maybe as a kid - you had to touch the stove just to make sure it was really hot?
Yeah - I got a burn there on my leg from doing that. Terrible one from the iron. Yeah - that's a true story. I just couldn't - my mom was like Watch that - watch that! - and sure enough.

I guess I'm trying to figure out how you got from where you were at and so sick for so long to where you're at today. So - for example - I have to put my recovery first. Or  - Self-will will kill me. When you say things like this - you must have heard these for a long time before you came to believe them . . .  
Twenty years. And that's another thing - I'm not gonna judge people - because I know that people judged me for over twenty years watching me come in and out of the program - in and out of the program. But I tell ya - I had all this knowledge - I was given all this knowledge - and it's all stuff that I heard in the meetings - that was given to me. But for whatever reason I couldn't use it upon myself. I just could not put it into works. And as they say - faith without works is dead.

You know we have to - it's an action program - and knowledge can never keep me clean. I can memorize the big book. It's not gonna keep me sober for one minute. That will not help. But it is beneficial and if i'm gonna use it. It's nice to know the stuff - if I'm going to use it. But to know it and not use it - it's a total waste. It's an absolute waste of life. It was twenty years - and for whatever reason I got clean - and I'd given up hope that it was going to work for me. But finally it did. I'm not gonna sit here for the rest of my life wondering how it happened - or why it happened - or wishing that it happened before it did. It didn't. That wasn't my path.

My path was one of self-destruction for twenty years - and ruining everybody's life that was associated with me - and causing havoc - and problems and wasting people's time. At the end of this thing - hopefully - you know - I'm just praying that I can continue staying clean one day at a time because if I don't it's gonna be such a waste - of everybody's time and effort.

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